| Author | Message | ||
     David Sheriff Board Administrator Username: admin Post Number: 287 Registered: 01-2004 |
The presence of a pilot does not relieve the ship's captain of responsibility for the pilot's errors. Recall the recent case where a pilot came on board (in Oakland?), thoroughly intimidated the bridge crew and refused to participate in a pre-departure briefing. The pilot proceeded to drive the ship into collision with a fixed object. The pilot and the captain were both reprimanded, if memory serves. | ||
| David Sheriff Board Administrator Username: admin Post Number: 286 Registered: 01-2004 |
I think it is less the terms used, like OOD which is "warship", and the application to what any of us would be involved in, which would be the opposite extreme from "warship". [Nobody mentioned JOOD or MOOD [midshipman] as somewhat analogous with Student Skipper; I shoulda since I'm apparently the only one of you who has actually stood these watches.] How about a middle ground, like for instance the "Exxon Valdez". Captain Hazelton is asleep [drunk? maybe or maybe not] and the watch officer has the con. We know the Captain has the ultimate responsibility, but where did the system actually go wrong? Failure to wake the captain? Would it have helped? I resist the temptation to mention the carrier that was run aground in SFBay by the Pilot; that was a warship but interesting if possible to know what actually happened on the bridge. Mark Howe (temporarily having difficulty posting) | ||
| Ted Lavino Moderator Username: tlavino Post Number: 104 Registered: 01-2006 |
Although it may not first appear so I think the participants in this discussion are actually all on more or less the same page: 1. Clearly defined roles (possibly taking a portion from the wiki OOD list (thanks David), calling them what you will, as long as the roles and and who fills them are well defined, i.e. clear communication (thanks Sandy) which requires 2. Delegation of specific authority/responsibility (thanks Mark), since the ultimate repository of authority and responsibility cannot do everything or be everywhere at all times, they parcel out that authority and responsibility using roles discussed above, one of them being a role that shares overall responsibility/authority with the vessel captain to give the captain personal/down/rest periods. It seems specific terms tend to engender strong responses by some, but IMO its not the terms themselves that are important, rather the roles and responsibilities behind them, and the fact that they ARE defined clearly and unambiguously and that all crew members have the same understanding and respect of them. | ||
| Marc Hughston Moderator Username: hughston Post Number: 681 Registered: 03-2003 |
I have to admit that I just now noticed that this discussion, and where I am now, is in the Warships part of the discussion board. I see now that Ted's original post had nothing to do with Saddleback Seamanship classes. I apologize for stirring things up. Please, carry on. Marc | ||
| Sandra Jean Gilman Intermediate Member Username: sandyjgilman Post Number: 17 Registered: 02-2004 |
Yes, a leadership problem. That's where clear, concise instruction comes in. And, of course, communication is essential. Isn't this all about learning: how to stay safe and have fun on a sailing vessel; how to get along with others (in case it wasn't learned in pre-school); how to provision and repair vessels; how to communicate properly regarding commands and names of "things;" and most of all how to lead without being authoritarian or passive. Lots to learn!! Oops, forgot how to FWP! I hope everyone is enjoying the classes as much as I did! | ||
| David Sheriff Board Administrator Username: admin Post Number: 281 Registered: 01-2004 |
From Mark Howe, who is having difficulty posting on this part of the board: "I think one of the most important factors is being missed here; delegation. On a Man-of-War not only are duties spelled out, but also hierarchies of rank, which have a very specific pecking order. Aboard a pleasure yacht (or classroom vessel in training for the same purpose) this is most likely not the case. But as Sandy says there is always a Captain. A good captain will always delegate duties, such as watch standers and galley slaves. I would have thought the term Student Skipper would have been pretty self-explanatory; Captain in training. The boat captain delegates authority to the student skipper for purposes of training, but there is never any question that the student skipper is subject to the boat Captain's authority, who is in turn subject to the authority of the class instructor, sometimes referred to as the "Admiral of the Saddleback fleet". One unavoidable issue that will always be an important issue is when the captain delegates responsibility to a crew member and then finds he does not agree with the way the crew member carries it out. This is NOT a chain of command problem, it is a leadership problem. Both delegation of responsibilities and supervision are arguably the most important analysis in the leadership papers required of student skippers in the MST 215 class." | ||
| Sandra Jean Gilman Intermediate Member Username: sandyjgilman Post Number: 16 Registered: 02-2004 |
It's simple, Ted. There is always a Captain on a boat. In the MST classes, there is also a Student Skipper. If either of these two people are indisposed, they assign duty to someone else, making sure their instructions are clear. This is not rocket science. | ||
| Ted Lavino Moderator Username: tlavino Post Number: 103 Registered: 01-2006 |
" The point is to generalize that structure so that it is transferable to other vessels in a variety of settings" Absolutely. Unfortunately the construct of "student skipper" does not exist outside the MST class, hence I use a more general term to generalize the structure. If one finds that term objectionable, one can substitute one of choice, making sure all are on board are clear on roles and responsibilities. I've never referenced military protocols in any of our discussions, and this forum IS outside of the MST realm. The concept of an OOD exists separately from the military. I was using the article mentioned in my earlier post to point out the usefulness of the concept, and as David said to outline some of the duties that that role might be responsible for. I'm glad that the 215 class now has a clear distinction regarding chain of command - it has not always had one, at least during most of the period of my participation. | ||
| Marc Hughston Moderator Username: hughston Post Number: 680 Registered: 03-2003 |
Right. Well, this is what is contained in section 2 in the MST 215 book about leadership and the student skipper. Terms are important, and that is why the main halyard is not referred to as "one of those ropes over there." Similarly, we have a boat captain and a student skipper, and no officers of any kind. The point is to generalize that structure so that it is transferrable to other vessels in a variety of settings. If we adopt a military-style set of terms and protocols, we fail to achieve the mission of this class and of the college itself. Your interest in defining terms and roles in accord with military conventions should be carried on outside the realm of the Saddleback Seamanship courses. | ||
| Ted Lavino Moderator Username: tlavino Post Number: 102 Registered: 01-2006 |
Marc, it sounds like you have an OOD role, but jut don't use the term. In the MST 214 environment, who has responsibility for the vessel when the vessel captain is sleeping? If that is in fact the student skipper, then I would call the student skipper the OOD, even if the term is not used. The point is that there is someone that has unambiguous responsibility and authority for managing the vessel at all times (both from the point of view of the crew, and also from a legal standpoint), and I use the term OOD to make that role clear. Others may not use that particular term, but the role needs to be clear whatever term is used. | ||
| Marc Hughston Moderator Username: hughston Post Number: 679 Registered: 03-2003 |
Can I just suggest then that we move this chain of command issue to another discussion on what the Navy and Coast Guard do? Leadership is the centerpiece here, and it is a very different different discussion on uninspected auxiliary sailboats under 45 feet. In fact, it is the subject we teach in MST 215. There are no OODs or POOWs in this class, but there is a clear chain of command involving the Boat Captain and the Student Skipper. A military-style hierarchy has no place in the class we teach. Those interested in that kind of thing should join the Navy or Coast Guard. | ||
| David Sheriff Board Administrator Username: admin Post Number: 277 Registered: 01-2004 |
I found the article interesting in that it outlines the duties of the person immediately responsible for the welfare of a navy ship. It also describes the formal process, with deep historical roots, of unambiguously transferring that responsibility from one person to another so that everyone relevant is informed of the identity of the new person. The captain is legally responsible for the ship and the Officer of the Deck exercises most of the captain's authority under routine circumstances. If you read Dutton's Navigation you will find all of these naval roles described in detail. I've not been in the navy or on a warship bridge, but I appreciate the importance of being extremely clear on the definition of every role played on the bridge. The necessity of populating the bridge with a number of cross-trained individuals is also clear. From what I have read, the crew of a warship has been much larger than that of a similarly sized merchant vessel for more than hundreds of years. The expectations of a warship are that it continue it's mission in spite of casualties or damage. If you drill the formal procedure into the officers and crew, they will be better able to continue to function under duress. I fail to see how any of us can have anything but the highest regard for the personnel, equipment and procedures of the Coast Guard and Navy. The procedures may seem irrelevant to small recreational vessels, but in fact every single role is played by one or two people. Looking at naval procedure deconstructs our civilian duty to vessel, crew and passengers. One of the most important purposes of licensing officers in the merchant marine and in recreational vessels is to maintain group of qualified individuals in case they are needed during a time of war. The Jones Act is not just protection for the jobs of American merchant sailors. This country has fought several wars during my lifetime that I consider to have been very ill advised on the part of the civilian leadership of this country and our military. But I appreciate the physical protection the military affords me. Naval personnel take their roles very seriously and so do I. | ||
| Ted Lavino Moderator Username: tlavino Post Number: 98 Registered: 01-2006 |
Greetings folks, I make a big deal about the chain of command in some of the organization documents I've shared, with particular attention to the deck watch and the concept of an Officer of the Deck or OOD. Here is a somewhat overdone blurb on the topic, but strip away the bureaucracy and you get the gist of the value of a clear chain of command for even the smallest vessel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer_of_the_Deck |
