| Author | Message | |||
     Mark Howe Moderator Username: Unclemark Post Number: 256 Registered: 08-2003 |
Great discussion!! And I hope it does make it to the Sailing Aspects hall of fame. It makes me a little nervous seeing how many different interpretations there are for this situation. I think that there will be one lesson to be learned here; if you are on a collision course with a boat that is hove to, common sense will tell you that he is not moving and he is not going to maneuver to get out of your way, so use the "do not ram" rule and don't hit him. Thanks, Mark | |||
| Marc Hughston Moderator Username: Hughston Post Number: 530 Registered: 03-2003 |
As to David's comment about recreational vessels not using the shapes required, what about the sounds too? Every time you leave your slip you must give one long blast, and three short as well if you put her in reverse. Just imagine that noise! I guess it's that way for the same reason everyone drives 70 -75 on the freeway - enforcement is thin. | |||
| Marc Hughston Moderator Username: Hughston Post Number: 529 Registered: 03-2003 |
Here's a quick real-life example in which the starboard tacked boat runs down the port tacked boat, and still pays for some of the damage to the port tacked boat. Several years ago right out in front of our harbor, two MST 214B students were on the 30 foot race boat Dr. J, port tacked in the starting area while the skipper was demonstrating to the two students how to tie a bowline. The 80+ foot schooner Kelpie was in her starting sequence on starboard, and Dr. J was between her and the starting line. Kelpie has a really long bowsprit and had already pierced Dr. J's main, ripping sailcloth and taking out the running backs before the hulls even made contact. From the first-hand report I heard, sounds like Kelpie didn't quite notice Dr. J was even there until she slowed down a bit. Dr. J's owner told me that Kelpie's insurance company paid for 40% of his damages, which were extensive. Kelpie was on starboard on Dr. J was on port. How could that be? Dr. J's owner told me it was because there not a proper lookout on Kelpie. | |||
| Marc Hughston Moderator Username: Hughston Post Number: 528 Registered: 03-2003 |
Couple of points on the hove-to discussion. I have been told that in the event of a collision with serious consequences, there would be a finding of fact. In that finding would be the determination whether one vessel was not under command, which one was on starboard, and so on. It's all academic until then because what the rules say, bottom line, is that there will be no collisions. In the case below presented by Mike, no one yet mentioned the duties of the lookout. If mike looked up from his sandwich just in time to witness the collision but not avoid it, then by definition he was not maintaining a proper lookout (Rule 5), and second, not taking appropriate action to avoid collision (Rule 2). One of the first questions he'd be asked is, "Who was on lookout at that time." Next, I just don't buy the argument that a hove-to vessel is not under command. I do buy Mark's argument that jibing all of a sudden and maneuvering in a way that could confuse another boat as to your intentions is a bad thing. Read Rule 8 that covers Action to Avoid Collision. It says, to paraphrase, when it's your job to give-way (as when you are port tacked even if hove-to) you shall take early action and give sufficient room to the other guy. | |||
| Marc Hughston Moderator Username: Hughston Post Number: 527 Registered: 03-2003 |
Saul, The tool you want with lights, shapes, and sounds already exists, it's not pocket sized, but I think everything on it is essential. I extracted the lights and shapes portion and it's in the picture below.  A downloadable page with the full size card with lights, shapes, and sounds is below.
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| Ted Lavino Senior Member Username: Tlavino Post Number: 448 Registered: 01-2004 |
Admittedly this is getting to be a bit silly when discussing the concept of a vessel not under command due to a wrapped jib sheet, but if in fact the vessel cannot be maneuvered (for whatever reason), the rules state that that vessel is the stand on vessel, even if the approaching vessel is on a starboard tack. And as David mentions if for whatever reason the approaching vessel sees that what they believe to be the give way vessel not to be in fact giving way, they have the responsibility under rule 17 to take action to avoid a collision, despite their belief that they are the stand on vessel under other Navigation Rules. | |||
| David Sheriff Board Administrator Username: Admin Post Number: 69 Registered: 01-2004 |
Now I'm really confused. The other vessel is supposed to behave differently based on his perception of whether the backwinded jib is just hove-to or the result of a rigging issue? That cannot be right. I would think, upon encountering what might look like a give-way vessel, the ostensibly stand-on vessel would alter course in plenty of time after seeing that the other vessel was not behaving as expected. This is consistent with Rule 17 (2.) "The [stand on] vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her maneuver alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules." The rules seem pretty firm about avoiding collisions regardless of what you believe your rights are. | |||
| David Sheriff Board Administrator Username: Admin Post Number: 68 Registered: 01-2004 |
Rule 27 defines the lights and shapes required for "not under command" and restricted in ability to manuver. Paragraph (g) reproduced below exempts most vessels under 12 meters from exhibiting the LIGHTS (emphasis mine) required. Is this interpreted to mean shapes too? One would think it would say "lights and shapes" if that's what they meant. My understanding is that admiralty law is usually interpreted pretty literally. (g) Vessels of less than 12 meters in length, except those engaged in diving operations, shall not be required to exhibit the lights prescribed in this Rule. | |||
| Ted Lavino Senior Member Username: Tlavino Post Number: 447 Registered: 01-2004 |
Now we're changing the scenario though. The first scenario was hove to for lunch, not because of an overwrap. If in a different scenario you are hove to because of an overwrap on the windward jib sheet winch, you might now fall under the rule concerning Vessels Not Under Command if in fact due to the overwrap you cannot maneuver the vessel. In that case the Vessel Not Under Command rule trumps the Starboard Tack rule, and the sailboat with the overwrap would be the stand-on vessel. BTW, Mark, if you go into the Page Manager application via the Administration link at the lower right corner of each page, there is a Mov selection that has an icon of a hand associated with it that allows you to move the thread to another section. I would, but I don't have admin privileges in the New Thoughts section... | |||
| Mark Howe Moderator Username: Unclemark Post Number: 255 Registered: 08-2003 |
I can change the name of the topic but I can't move it to the sailing section. | |||
| Mark Howe Moderator Username: Unclemark Post Number: 254 Registered: 08-2003 |
OK; now some of you are saying the hove-to vessel is under way on a port tack even though he is parked. So now lets say the reason he is parked is because he has a overwrapped jib sheet. He sees the other vessel coming, thinks like you do, gybes out of his heave to, and now is leeward vessel on a starboard tack. He can now force the other vessel to stay clear and then go back to clearing his sheet. Seems like it would make a lot more sense for a hove-to vessel to be considered unable to maneuver. Safer too, since a backwinded jib is pretty obvious and all that turning around might be confusing to a stand on boat. If it were me approaching a parked boat drifting, regardless whether it was under power or sail, I would prefer it not suddenly decide to maneuver. And if it did, I would be changing course anyway cause I would have no idea of what it was going to end up doing. Remember, this is not going to be, or look like, the usual converging course scenario. He will be pointed one way and drifting another. | |||
| Ted Lavino Senior Member Username: Tlavino Post Number: 446 Registered: 01-2004 |
My understanding regarding the lack of day shapes used in recreational boating is that in most cases they are only required for vessels over 12 meters in length. As to the lack of enforcement for recreational vessels over 12 meters, it may be one of those "local practice" situations that David has mentioned in the past. Anyone have alternative theories? | |||
| Ted Lavino Senior Member Username: Tlavino Post Number: 445 Registered: 01-2004 |
Day shapes are balls, cones, cylinders and diamonds that are used in various combinations to signal special situations that may not be readily determined by another vessel and which convey special treatment under the Navigation Rules, such as a vessel aground, under power with sails up, anchored, etc. Shapes are mentioned throughout Part C of the Navigation Rules that cover lights and shapes. Specifics to their size and shape are covered in Annex 1. On an administrative note, could one of the moderators having responsibility for this section move this discussion to the All Aspects of Sailing-Rules of the Road section? | |||
| saul sanchez Member Username: Saul Post Number: 8 Registered: 07-2003 |
Are day shapes flags? I only know of lights that tell "not under command" messages. Can we as part of the class create frequently/realistically used in southern CA (or should be used) flags & lights pocket card that can be easily carried and used, rather than the ones you can buy with a lot of nonpractical information. Maybe create a pdf and people can print it and laminate themselves to glue to their boat, GPS, cooler, hat, SOP, laptop or whatever floats their boat. | |||
| David Sheriff Board Administrator Username: Admin Post Number: 67 Registered: 01-2004 |
Isn't this a good place to talk about day shapes? It seems like their proper use could clarify a "not under command" situation. I have seen day shapes used, but only around LA harbor by anchored freighters. What is the logic of requiring day shapes and then tolerating essentially all recreational vessels not using them? | |||
| Ted Lavino Senior Member Username: Tlavino Post Number: 444 Registered: 01-2004 |
I think Marc hit the nail on the head on all points. A mnemonic I learned some time ago when interpreting stand on/give way rules among vessels under sail may be of use. They are listed in decreasing hierarchy: On Overtaking The Tack Water Windward/Leeward If the vessel was not overtaking you (as Marc said, aft of 225 degrees relative bearing), the next rule would come into play, the starboard tack rule, which in this case means that you were the give way vessel and as Marc indicated should take early and visible action to eliminate the risk of collision and to alert the stand on vessel that you recognize your obligation to give way. However, in other specialized circumstances there may be additional rules that come into play. A more complete mnemonic for the hierarchy of the various rules is one taught by OCC as part of their USCG License prep class (which requires you to score 90% or better on the Navigation Rules section to pass the exam): Our Overtaking Navy Not Under Command Requires Restricted in Ability to Maneuver Canned Constrained by Draft Fish Fishing Vessels Served Sailing Vessels Promptly Power Vessels (at) Seven Seaplanes So in theory if you were a vessel not under command (meaning you could not maneuver due to exceptional circumstances such as your engine or steering was inoperative), restricted in your ability to maneuver (meaning restricted by the sort of work you are doing, i.e. mine sweeping, diver below, etc), restricted by draft (i.e. narrow channel that you must follow due to depth considerations) or a fishing vessel (with big trawls or nets over the side, not just a fishing pole or two), you would be the stand on vessel even if you were a power boat or other sailboat was on starboard tack. You would also be required to display the appropriate lights or day shapes to alert other vessels to your situation and their responsibilities under the rules. However, absent those special situations, the OTW heirarchy applies and you are the give way vessel. For those who would like to review the rules, online resources are at http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/navrules.htm | |||
| Marc Hughston Moderator Username: Hughston Post Number: 526 Registered: 03-2003 |
Hey, we should move this to the Rules of the Road Discussion under the "All Aspects..." topic. Mike, Good discussion, but I have a question. Was the starboard tacker overtaking you, i.e., approaching from 22.5 degrees or more abaft your beam (this might be possible)? Here's my analysis. If he was not overtaking then he was crossing you or meeting you head-on, and you were on port tack. It's a simple case of two sailing vessels on opposite tacks. Port keeps out of the way of starboard. All boats must take action in ample time allowing, as the rules say, for the circumstances of the case. The rules make no allowance for boats that are hove to. There's a whole lot more to say about why this is the case, but I'd rather respond to an interesting question than quote and interpret the whole thing for you right here. Want more? Marc | |||
| Mark Howe Moderator Username: Unclemark Post Number: 253 Registered: 08-2003 |
Mark, Had a great sail on Enchantress yesterday, but an issue came about that I need your input on. We were hove-to with the boom on the starboard side and the jib backwinded on our port. We were drifting at a rate between 1 and 1.5 kts according to my GPS. As I looked up from my sandwich, I saw a boat under sail - on a starboard tack - coming right at me. It occurred to me that it may not be apparent to him that I was hove-to, but simply sailing on a port tack. Logic tells me that I have the right of way, but logic does not always apply. I was moving at up to 1.5 kts, and I was technically "under sail" - but my vessel was not very maneuverable at that point. What are the rules? I would appreciate your wisdom. Mike P.S. He gave way, but he took his sweet time! My two cents; You were under way but not making way. You also were unable to maneuver. Your obligations are to make it clear to he other vessel that you cannot maneuver, but I would consider that your backwinded jib would make that clear. Under those conditions i would consider your tack to be immaterial. Taking sweet time is also immaterial, but making intentions clear is both prudent and polite. I will post this discussion to the www.electricmarine/discus board for input. Thanks for the puzzle; these are fun to work out since when it happens to you its not always so easy. Mark W. Howe |
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