| Author |
Message |
    
april salem
Senior Member
Username: April
Post Number: 96
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 04:42 pm: | 
|
John,
I tried to think wayyyy outside the dingy and figured ok... what if... I am at this place that is really deep, I mean really deep... and there are no folks around....so essentially I do a type of bahamian with bow and stern... I have to be careful that if wind changes I do not go over the other anchor... I was just trying to figure out the deepest I could go.
It is simple to assume a 5:1 with 150 ft... so I thought well... now. What if I am next to some Island that just sheers off into the ocean and there is no real cove and I just want to rest...
I came up with a huge amount the first time but I did not use my first difference to change and add....so that is how I got to 30-45 ft...using the anchors at an angle not really a stern and bow... so they would not be directly out front and back...They would be when I dropped them, but they would have so much line down below they would soon become a semi-bahamian type but only off stern and bow.
Hey that was thinking outside of the box! I was only trying to imagine the deepest situation... |
John Fellner
Member
Username: John_fellner
Post Number: 7
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 01:15 pm: |
|
I don't think so. The question was how deep can you anchor with the given amount of rode, 5:1 scope and without using the dinghy. Your depth is limited by how much rode you can get out. Think outside the dinghy |
Mark Howe
Moderator
Username: Unclemark
Post Number: 158
Registered: 08-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 10:53 am: |
|
April;
Yes you are close; maybe even right on. I just couldn't understand your algebra. Draw a picture in class tonight. My problem is how to deal with the part when you have to pull in on one as you are lowering the other. Maybe it requires calculus; is this an integral? |
april salem
Senior Member
Username: April
Post Number: 93
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 10:42 am: |
|
Mark,
Read down to my original answer... it is surely outside the box...am I getting close????
See I too figure what the Hell, so we have some lateral movement or we have a lot of rode on the ground...could be a good thing!
What do you think... am I almost there?
April |
Mark Howe
Moderator
Username: Unclemark
Post Number: 157
Registered: 08-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 10:33 am: |
|
You guys are confused; you have 600 ft. of rode. The problem is how to use it all.
Think outside of the box!!! - Mark [I'm back to red] |
april salem
Senior Member
Username: April
Post Number: 92
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 10:15 am: |
|
John,
I think confused how much rode I could possibly have out without going over the other anchor. Or actually I don't know what I was thinking... at first it seemed too easy to just cut the 300 in half for 150 ft and then take a 5:1 ration from that... even then if I had done it my way, using my own method, my max feet should have been 30-45 ft... oh well I tell you I hated math.....
I do understand that the stern length limits ones depth if all things being equal we want to drop it equally. |
John Fellner
Junior Member
Username: John_fellner
Post Number: 6
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 10:05 am: |
|
If the current was coming directly into the bow, the bow anchor would be providing most of the holding power and the stern anchor would be preventing the boat from drifting sideways with moderate shifts in current direction. In this case you would not need as much holding power from the stern anchor as the bow. However if the current shifted and hit the boat on a right angle the stern anchor would need the same holding power as the bow so you would need the 5:1 scope. If heavy winds where expected I would think you would want to play it safe and have 5:1 for the stern. In the summer the ocean sometimes is like a big pond; you could probably reduce the scope. |
Susie Campbell
Senior Member
Username: Susie
Post Number: 115
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 09:45 am: |
|
Oh boy...I have a SMART student skipper!! I'll sleep good on this trip! |
Marc Hughston
Moderator
Username: Hughston
Post Number: 251
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 09:07 am: |
|
Nice work John. Now, do you need 5:1 scope on the stern? |
John Fellner
Junior Member
Username: John_fellner
Post Number: 5
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 08:44 am: |
|
30' would the max depth.
This is why. You drop the stern anchor, then motor out 300’ and drop the bow anchor. You then payin 150’ of rode from the stern leaving 150’ of rode from the bow and stern. You can not have more rode on one end without less on the other and your scope is limited by the length of the shortest rode.
If the bow rode was 200’ and the stern 250’ the maximum depth would be 25’. You would end up with 125' of rode for each the bow and stern, providing you dropped the stern anchor first. If you drop the bow anchor first you end up with 100' on each end and the max depth would be 20' |
Susie Campbell
Senior Member
Username: Susie
Post Number: 112
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 04:26 pm: |
|
These are my simple steps to anchoring with just a bow anchor. When I was learning this, I had the steps written down on index cards and would review it just before going into the anchorage. When anchoring bow and stern; dropping the stern anchor first is a great idea! Cheree did a great job of this on our last trip. Don was so impressed! She came driving the boat in on the other side of the wheel. (facing the stern) Once the stern anchor was dropped, she got on the right side of the wheel and moved forward with the boat to drop the bow anchor.
Steps to Anchoring
By: Susie Campbell
1. Skipper chooses spot. Pick a safe anchorage, one that is not too crowded, is protected by land from onshore wind and large waves and has good holding ground. (project a disaster scene on your mental movie screen) Always check the tide tables before going in!
Ask questions to people already anchored! Make friends!!
2. Crew members on foredeck prepares ground tackle (check to make sure rode is clear to run and tied off at cleat.
3. Be sure anchor is over the roller
4. Skipper announces depth
5. Steer boat into wind/ absolutely NO forward motion when dropping anchor!!! It’s good to be moving back just a little so that the rode doesn’t fall into a big pile at the bottom of the ocean floor.
6. Drop hook hand over hand. Use cleat to control speed of rode going out.
7. Bow crew tells helmswomen when anchor has hit bottom.
Sheet out slowly; letting the wind blow you back. If there is no wind
the helmswomen may have to back slowly in reverse.
8. Bow crew announces depths when she sees the tags.
Cleat line every now and then and check for a bite. Continue sheeting
out on the line until you’re at your mark.
9. 3-1 for lunch 5-1 for overnight 7-1 in a storm
If you’re in 20ft. of water and there for lunch, just think 20ft.x3=60ft. of rode. If you’re in 30 ft. and there for overnight. Think 30x5=150ft. of rode.
10. When at your mark, cleat it off good!
11. Look for horizontal pull/take a wrap around the cleat just to make sure the anchor rode doesn’t start pulling out.
12. Line up some trees, boulders or other boats and watch to see if your anchor is dragging. If not…it’s Miller Time! |
april salem
Senior Member
Username: April
Post Number: 89
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 04:21 pm: |
|
Ok I am going to pretend here... and go with instincts...
If I go up and back trying to get my anchor in deep enough without letting out so much rode that the boat will go over the other anchor.... and also not have too much lateral movement and allow for horizontal pull... I would:
double the total rode since both are equal. NOw I have 600. I would half that and add it...so now I have 450. If I took a 5:1 ratio off of 300 rode I would be at 60 ft. If I take a 5:1 ratio off of 450 I would be at 90 ft. So I would then add half the difference of that... so that would be 60 +15 ft so I have 75 ft...so maybe 75-80 ft ... what do you think of that math?
NOw you know why I hated algebra...they have equations that must stay the same!
In the secon equation I would double the shortest amount fot a stern and bow... if the stern is way short it is pointless to consider it at a certain ratio and having a good bottom if I go too deep.
My instincts say I should have a headache too...
April |
Mark Howe
Moderator
Username: Unclemark
Post Number: 155
Registered: 08-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 03:30 pm: |
|
Tips:
1. I tell the communicator amidships [if it isn't me] to repeat everything that comes out of the mouth of the anchor dropper. Sometimes groans and other noises are descriptive.
2. Since the stern rode is the shortest you will have to tie the rodes together if you drop the stern anchor first. Also, if you go into shallow water to drop the stern planning to head bow out to drop the bower, you won't have any margin of safety in case of a problem. [Your only anchor is in shallow amongst the dangers.]
3. You can use the tension of the rode being paid out to steer the boat. We talk about this a lot but you have to feel it to understand it.
4. Always feed rode in and out of the anchor locker in a linear manner. Watch to be sure some crewmember doesn't just shove a pile of rode into the locker or put the chain in with a pile of rope over the top of it. Even coils get tangled. Sometimes it is necessary to coil, but if so, make several small coils; never one big one. And unhank the coils in plenty of time before they are needed. [I always put this off and am sorry]
5. Use a rope bridle for all-chain rodes.
Thanks Kevin; this was good exercise thinking of all these hints. Wonder how many more I might think of. |
Mark Howe
Moderator
Username: Unclemark
Post Number: 154
Registered: 08-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 02:57 pm: |
|
Good riddle; I think you have to use algebra for this, cause as soon as you start lowering the stern anchor you have to be pulling back in on the bow anchor so the anchor won't be landing where you drop it. Oh, but we're assuming bow and stern at the same depth? I'm getting a headache. |
Marc Hughston
Moderator
Username: Hughston
Post Number: 247
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 01:31 pm: |
|
Kevin's comment about scouting the anchorage is on target. Surveying is one of the most important activities before anchoring in my view. I also like to get a handle on the slope of the bottom, and it's an issue at Willow where you might set the bow anchor in 60 feet,the stern anchor in 20 feet, and come to rest somewhere around 30 feet. If your chart is not large enough scale to reveal those depth contours, you just have to kind of drive through with your eye on the depth sounder.
Here's a tip for anchoring bow and stern: set your stern anchor first, and then you can motor out in a straight line to drop the bow anchor. This handles the problem of not being able to back down in a straight line, especially when the wind blows the bow down.
Another basic but important tip is this: know how much total rode you have, and as a result, what your maximum depth for anchoring is.
Here's a riddle that relates to the above:
You plan to anchor bow and stern, using 5:1 scope on both anchor rodes. Both anchors will be set from the boat, and not from the dinghy. You have 300 feet of rode on the bow, and 300 feet of rode on the stern. What is the maximum depth you can anchor in?
What if your stern rode was 200 feet, and the bow was 250?
I'll have some follow up for anyone who gets this. |
Kevin Bardool
New member
Username: Kevinb
Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 01:39 am: |
|
Mark & Marc -
As a novice, and to take advantage of your experience...
What would your most important tips/advice to a student skipper be in preparation and executing a successful anchoring? We go over a lot of material in class, but there are always those 'practical' tips that can make a huge difference.
Here are a few that seemed important to me, just by observation - may seem obvious for some, but nonetheless:
- Always take time to scout the area where you're planning to lay anchor. Study the layout of the anchorage, swell and currents, other anchored boats, especially kelp patches. Make sure you are aware of any submerged obstacles. Study the charts before you get there.
- Take tidal currents (and obviously prevailing weather conditions) into account.
- Make sure your crew understands what your plan of action is. Establish a method of communicating with the crew at the bow (hand signals, etc...). With the engine running, noise levels are high and it's not easy to hear voice commands.
- (for me especially…) - Try to understand how your boat handles/steers in reverse. Each boat has a bit different prop walk, so it's good to get familiar with it. Considering the specific wind/current conditions you may face at the anchorage, being able to handle the boat correctly while in reverse is essential.
A couple of tips from each of you would be a wealth of information. Thanks!
-Kevin |
Mark Howe
Moderator
Username: Unclemark
Post Number: 153
Registered: 08-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 02:52 pm: |
|
The sand line is weighted with lead weights so's it doesn't get caught in your rudder or propeller during mooring. That's why you wait a few seconds for it to sink before you engage your propeller to pull off the mooring when departing.
I would have thought the "Alaskan Incident" was where the fishermen died. Maybe more than one incident this season.
Somebody start a survival at sea thread or one on man-overboard. |
april salem
Senior Member
Username: April
Post Number: 84
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 10:13 pm: |
|
You know Marc, I am not sure. Susie referred to it and I just ran with it! A very large ship...one that takes college students to sea for a semester was off of the Aleutian Islands maybe 2 weeks ago max. When all of a sudden a 50 ft wave hit the side of it and Coast Guard was called, they just entered Hawaii about two days ago... everyone was fine...
Two crew members were injured and a lot of desks/ chairs got thrown around. So Susie stated that when discussing all this about anchoring etc preparation and knowing the capacity of the equipment was important and she referred this to MOBs and such with anchoring. I figured most MOB's during anchoring was due to booze and probably not realizing how heavy that howser can be after tightening it up and then one needs to release it...
So in a very round about way... we were in our feminine way (swirls and creative license) discussing anchoring. See guys are more linear... Mars and Venus and all that stuff...
So yeah when that large campus vessel ANCHORED in Hawaii two days ago, the kids were happy to get off the floor and on to real chairs! |
Marc Hughston
Moderator
Username: Hughston
Post Number: 242
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 09:09 pm: |
|
April, I love ya, but just to keep the focus on anchoring within this thread, what are you talking about, and does it have lessons for us on Anchoring and Mooring?
Honestly, I don't mind the chatter, and whatever the "Alaskan Incident" is, if it has relevance, please elaborate. That way, perhaps others can contribute to the discussion.
Don't everyone get quiet now! |
april salem
Senior Member
Username: April
Post Number: 83
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 07:14 pm: |
|
Susie, I haven't read enough indepth stuff on the Alaskan incident.. I know that they were broadsided by a 50 ft wave and only two injuries...if I am not mistaken a broken wrist and ankle... very mild stuff in terms of injuries. The kids were all fine. Their big beef was that some chairs and such got broken so they ended up sitting on the floor for classes. Not too bad!
So here is my question... if you had a boat mid sized not that monster...and you saw some huge wave...what would be your thoughts and options?
As a surfer I would think "sh#@ paddle fast and get over that crest OR DIVE DIVE DIVE"... never would I turn around and hope that I could easily surf down the face as it was beginning to break. In a boat, would you try to gun it and get over the crest, risking turning your boat around and being hit broadside,or hope like Hell that the bow goes through the tip of the crest and not "over the falls" turning you upside down? I have actually thought about that predicament a few times.
Surfing was interesting because trust me, I went over the falls numerous times. When the surf is big the whitewater is THICK and to get up high enough for some air before the next break is exhausting as one wants to dive again so as not to be tumbled around too much. With good lungs, good endurance and no rocks there was usually no real worry... with a boat, there are so many issues!
What would most skippers do? I mean this is not your normal wave but do you just crank that engine and attempt to climb the crest at a certain point or do you turn on a dime and hope for the best?
Of course it is the "Perfect Storm" scenarios that remian in my mind... but honestly what are the stats on either of those two responses? |
Susie Campbell
Senior Member
Username: Susie
Post Number: 110
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 11:06 am: |
|
Most common reason people fall overboard??
PRIDE…pride in many forms; here are a few examples.
1.The Super Hero kind of guy who thinks he can pee off the bow of the boat with out holding on to the boat.
2.The person who doesn’t tether themselves to the boat at night or in rough seas. If he doesn’t have a life jacket on and if his life jacket has no light attached to it; he’s a dead man if he goes overboard at night!!
Here are my notes from the class I attended last night on lifesaving. Our instructor was Bruce Brown. He has interviewed hundreds of survivors; mostly Alaskan fisherman. We got to inflate a life raft! I couldn’t believe how fast a 6 man life raft inflates!!!!
Rescue at Sea
R E S C U E
R- Stands for Recognition
Recognize what could be a problem before it becomes a problem and deal with it. What was the cause of the recent incident up in Alaska ? It wasn’t necessarily the weather conditions that got them into trouble; it was that they didn’t recognize the seriousness of their engine trouble, as a possible threat to their lives.
E- Equipment
Know how to use it before you have to use it! Know where it is and make sure everyone on board knows where it is and how to use it. The most common time for a disaster to occur is at 2:00am!! Try reading the directions on your flares at 2:00am! And the directions are printed in red…that really makes it hard to read in the dark!
S-Shelter
The best shelter is your boat until it becomes a threat to you. Don’t abandon ship unless there’s a fire that can’t be controlled or flooding.
C-Communicate
Know how to use the radio and know how to tell them where you are. I heard a story about a guy who was in a raft with nothing but his CD player. He used his CD as a signal mirror and was found. There are lots of ways to communicate!
U- Utilities
Water and food! You can go 3 days without water and 7 days without food. A person needs at least a pint of water a day.
E- Entertainment
Information gathered from life raft survivors says that entertainment was vital to their survival. The most common item asked for (that wasn’t in the raft) was a deck of cards. Laughter keeps the spirits up! I don't think our Saddleback crews would have any problem with keeping entertained!!! |
april salem
Senior Member
Username: April
Post Number: 82
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 09:46 am: |
|
Susie,
I would imagine booze and I would imagine trying to tie off at a harbor and hanging over and not realizing how HEAVY that hawser can be when you have it tight and then falling over.... but the only times a Sea Scout has fallen off a boat "accidentally" is "jumping" into the dingy because they didn't want to get left behind and they "missed". All other over boards were intentional!
I have not falled off a boat ...yet. I rock climbed for years...even did it without a harness to "prove I was over something" in looking back I was just realizing it wasn't my time yet!!!! LOL (Oh and I did over estimate my abilities and ended up with two shoulder surgeries, rather than "let go" and use the harness for what it did")....
I very much stay low like a crab...and I try to remember three appendiges if possible at all times but I did buy myself a sailing harness. I did it! I actually like the climbing harnesses but they look a little weird on board a ship! kinda between a diaper and a chastity belt...
So what are the most frequent over boards you have seen, experienced or great stories?
Oh and last time, I ended up using Cheree's old gloves, but she has smaller hands and I might have poked my fingers through them! She said they were old and it was OK....
One of the nights when we anchored by Spirit over and over and over... I stunk so bad...that when I showed up at a camp fire where the Sea Scouts were ( I was to be chaperone that night) they said "stand down wind!" YUCK that stuff in the harbor is so bad a kid will tell you! I had to run home and shower! Our harbor is worse than any mooring! |
BOB BRUNSON
Intermediate Member
Username: Bob_brunson
Post Number: 11
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 09:30 am: |
|
Number one resoon for MOB has got to be Booze
Just a guess..
Bob Brunson fly-1sail-2@cox.net |
BOB BRUNSON
Member
Username: Bob_brunson
Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 09:20 am: |
|
Hi,
Thought so.
Could not find it in any indix or gloosary.
Have moored at Avilon , so I too have had dirty gloves, lol
Cheers;
Bob Brunson FLY-1SAIL-2@COX.NET |
Susie Campbell
Senior Member
Username: Susie
Post Number: 109
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 08:03 am: |
|
One problem with tossing that spreader line back in the water is that you can get a wrap around your keel or worce yet, your rudder. I hate when that happens so I always pull in the slack a little and tie if off on a winch or a crew member that's in time out. Hey...any of you know the number 1 reason why people fall overboard????? |
Mark Howe
Moderator
Username: Unclemark
Post Number: 151
Registered: 08-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 07:50 am: |
|
In class, the sand line was the one we described as being very slimy and smelly. April says she wears disposable gloves for this; I never leave it on deck but get it back in the water as soon as possible as I am pulling in the stern "hawser". |
Marc Hughston
Moderator
Username: Hughston
Post Number: 241
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 11:14 pm: |
|
Mr. Barley, you have a story about being anchored on, and escaping from your anchorage on a lee shore don't you? Please Tell All!! |
Marc Hughston
Moderator
Username: Hughston
Post Number: 240
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 11:08 pm: |
|
In answer to my question no. 3, here are some some thoughts.
I have had the harbor patrol assign me to a mooring that was meant for a much larger boat than the one I was on. The advice the fellow gave me was to tie off on the sandline because I might never reach the stern hawser, then watch the tension as the tide came up because he did not want me to pull the cement anchors off the bottom. If you study the picture, you'll see how this could happen. |
Marc Hughston
Moderator
Username: Hughston
Post Number: 239
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 10:48 pm: |
|
Here's a picture of the mooring setup you will find in almost every place there are moorings on Catalina, as well as written instructions on how to pick one up. What I have called the sandline is labeled "Spreader Line" in the picture.
 |
BOB BRUNSON
Member
Username: Bob_brunson
Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 09:55 pm: |
|
Marc,
Sorry.
Define the " sandline "
Thank I know,, but cofrim.
Bob Fly-1sail-2@cox.net |
april salem
Senior Member
Username: April
Post Number: 66
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 11:28 pm: |
|
1. Two anchors vs one: Well two might not be so great. If they are bohamian (sp?) then they can get twisted... also if other boats are all anchored in the same way then depending upon where the anchors are they can foul. Also there are many types of anchors. One can even have two on the same line...so it all depends upon the anchoring area, the sea bottom and what is around you, boats, rocks etc.
2. I have not anchored at Descanso (that I know of) , but if I think about this...if the bottom is deep then one must have a lot of rode. Also if it is so deep it could be difficult to have a good hold on the bottom. I hear there is a wreck there and there are lots of kelp so that would be a bummer. I can only guess that the amount of rode necessary would be huge. If we do not have an accurate depth meter we might not have enough horizontal pull and with tides this could be an issue if there are a lot of folks there...only guessing!
3. Well, if the hawser was too tight and it is attached to the bottom cement thing...then when the tide came in the boat would dip down! If one tied to the sand line, the line could lift up and down with the tide but still keep the boat in line and connected to the mooring. I am only guessing here as I have never been told that and we anchor there all the time with Sea Scouts. Twin Harbors is where the dancing and the parties are... perhaps we have never been there during times of great tidal changes. No matter what I will bring nasty gloves with me just for anchoring...and maybe an apron! |
Marc Hughston
Moderator
Username: Hughston
Post Number: 232
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 10:12 pm: |
|
This is the place to discuss anchoring and mooring. We will do plenty of anchoring on our cruises, and the amount of sleep we get will have a great deal to do with how well we anchor. More boats are lost, so I've heard, to anchoring problems than to heavy weather at sea. Let's talk about it here.
Here are some basic anchoring and mooring questions for you. If you have anwers, or more questions, post here.
1. Two anchors are more secure than one, right?
2. I've heard that when Avalon has no more moorings you can anchor next door at Descanso, but everyone says not to do that. I've heard it's real deep there. Why is that a problem?
3. Last time I was at Cat Harbor, the Harbor Patrol guy assigned me a mooring but told me to watch the tension on the hawser, and to ease it out and tie off on the sandline as the time came in. What the heck was he talking about? |
